fbpx

Episode 4

Transcript

Eric:

Welcome to the Deviant’s World. I’m Eric Cervini. Every other week on this podcast, including this one, I’ll go back in time to explore deviant historical mysteries from across the centuries with the help of historians, friends, and other special guests. This is the Deviant’s World: Magic Closet Edition.

[Interlude]

Eric:

Hello and welcome back to the Deviant’s World: Magic Closet Edition. I am here with Gregory once again. Say hi Gregory.

Gregory:
Hello.

Eric:
How are you surviving this a pretty crazy time?

Gregory:

Yeah, Corona? Yeah, it’s pretty, pretty wild. I’m still not officially working from home by doing my best to get that.

Eric:

To get working from home. I think it’s so fascinating how you’re seeing companies that once said, Oh no, it’s impossible to work from home suddenly saying, Oh, actually this is kind of nice. Well, we’re here with our, what are these called?

Gregory:

Mimosas.

Eric:

I have a lot of fun, I promise in the world I’m a lot of fun. Well, one thing before we get into the main part of our program, which is actually one of my favorite stories in all of gay history, which is the story of the gay traitor. Um, and before we get into that, I actually, you know, wanted to talk a little bit about what has been going on with the coronavirus and some of the panic and the government response. And one of the memes that’s been going around, of course there’s been, you know, a big outburst in, in online content with everyone cooped up in their homes. And one of the memes that I saw was comparing the, the reaction to this crisis by the government to the reaction during the AIDS crisis. Did you see that meme?

Gregory:

Yeah, I did.

Eric:

Yeah. So I have it in front of us. And it says “Straights: I can’t believe the government would just ignore an epidemic that threatens thousands of lives.” And it says “Gays,” and it’s James Franco and he says, “first time?” So, I mean, a lot of people have been sharing it and I think if you are stuck at home, one thing I wanted to recommend to all of our listeners and viewers is it is so important to understand what happened in the 1980s and 1990s in terms of what the government failed to do and what they allowed to happen in the face of essentially a pandemic that was just as bad, if not worse than what we’re seeing right now, at least within the LGBTQ+ community. Um and so one documentary, if you’re looking for something to do while you’re stuck at home, instead of going out, go ahead and Google How to Survive a Plague. It’s by David France. It was nominated for an Academy Award. And then title is relevant right now. We are trying to survive something really scary, not quite at plague level. But within the gay community–

Gregory:

It’s the closest thing I’ve ever seen in my life.

Eric:

Of course. Right? Very, very similar to, to what was being done in, one of the craziest things that people have not talked about is some of the actors are the exact same people. So for example, the guy who is in charge of the government effort, the, the at the National Institutes of Health for managing this crisis is the same exact guy who was doing that in a slightly different role, but essentially managing the AIDS crisis in the 1980s. That’s Anthony Fauci. So he was the guy who was, did you watch the the press conference?

Gregory:

No.

Eric:

He was one of the doctors who was speaking and–

Gregory:

Oh yeah. I couldn’t watch it.

Eric:

Oh, I mean, it was, it was crazy. But to be able to see the difference in how the government is reacting now and how seriously it’s taking it, when it’s affecting everyone versus when it is obliterating our own community and when it is targeted and even more deathly within our minority, I think is so important to see. And I think also what’s important about that film is it shows, it’s not just, you know, a sad movie about, you know, it’s not like Philadelphia. It’s not just a tear jerker it’s also a story of resistance and how activists are so essential for getting the government to actually respond and getting pharmaceutical companies to actually respond to a crisis like the one we’re facing now.

Eric:

And I think if anything, it’ll make people at least more vigilant in how they are perceiving and witnessing what the government is doing now. Because I think we have to make these comparisons in order to understand not only what is happening, but also what could happen. And so highly recommend it. I think it’s like $2 and 99 cents on Amazon. How to survive a plague, watch it, just do it. It, it, it, at the end of the day, it’s a, it’s a story of victory. But one that came at a huge cost and that should not have been that large. So highly recommended. I’m off my soapbox now. Thank you for standing. With me. I’m going to go ahead and have a sip of this.

Gregory:

Um what is that?

Eric:

A mimosa. But I think I preferred bellinis. I recently learned that within a few months.

Gregory:

It also rhymes with your last name.

Eric:

A bellini. A Cervini Bellini. Yeah. Ooh, I need a trademark that.

Gregory:

Yeah.

Eric:

Um okay. So now we’re going to go into a slightly more upbeat topic. It’s still a little bit dark because it raises the question of why did, at least in theory, on paper, why did the U S federal government hate gays so much? Why were they not allowed to work for the federal government? Have you ever heard the reasoning for why the government like, or at least with don’t ask, don’t tell. Do you know, do you remember anything about how, what the government was saying for why, what’s the official party line for why gays are so bad in the government? I’m not sure. Well, so don’t ask, don’t tell was a little different because they would always talk about like a troop morale, right? Like, if you had a gay person in your unit, then it would affect the aptitude of the entire, you know, your unit.

Eric:

Cause it might make people uncomfortable, right? If they feel like they’re being, that was a similar reasoning within the federal government. If you had a job, say you were working for the post office or you were working in, you know, the federal bureaucracy, you were not allowed to be a gay person or specifically be caught engaging in homosexual activity. And the reasoning for that, we’ll get into it. But one of the reasons is the issue of black nail. So you have to remember one when you can kind of compare it is, think of, you’ve heard the rumors about the pee tape, right? With President Trump. Tell me what do, what do you know about the, the pee tape? What’s like the allegation?

Gregory:

The, the infamous dossier that was published by Buzzfeed, I believe. That contained allegations of Trump urinating on hookers in Russia.

Eric:

Why was that bad? Like why was it so bad that that–

Gregory:

Because it’s embarrassing.

Eric:

It’s embarrassing. So what did the Russians do to Trump?

Gregory:

They blackmailed him.

Eric:

Exactly. Okay. So right now we have an instance, there is an allegation out there that president Trump was urinated on by sex workers in Moscow, that the Russians filmed it, or at least recorded it somehow, and then used that information to blackmail him saying, we will release this to the public unless you do things that are beneficial to our regime. Right? So the claim is he was blackmail. That same exact thing, that reasoning of blackmail happened in the 20th century. So that was the reasoning. Instead of being peed on by a Russian sex workers, it was if you were caught having sex with another man, because that was seen as so socially undesirable, then you were susceptible to blackmail. Therefore, anyone who is gay is a security risk. Does that make sense?

Gregory:

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean it doesn’t.

Eric:

Well it doesn’t. Right. And we’ll talk about some of the reasons why it doesn’t make, but that is something that continued all the way through, especially in like the CIA and some of the more sensitive agencies up until the Clinton administration that wasn’t outlawed. And of course, now you’re seeing slightly different reasoning for why trans Americans aren’t allowed in the military. So it continues. But I want to talk about the origins for where that reasoning, where it came from, at least on paper. So we’re going to go back more than a hundred years to very beginning of the 20th century. Have you heard of the Austro-Hungarian empire? Yes. We kind of talked about it last time we talked, chatted about remember King, the, the perhaps gay vice president had a love affair supposedly with a Prussian princess, right? So this is the, you know, the combination of these two States, Austria and Hungary, into this larger empire under the Habsburg family. Uh very powerful. At the beginning of the 20th century, they had, this is about, you know, a, a few years before world war one. They had a very powerful military, specifically at counter spy program within their military that was built from the ground up, essentially called the Evidenzbureau. Right? So you could think of that as like, we have our you know, CIA or FBI for more domestic matters. They had this intelligence office called the Evidenzbureau within their military, within the Austrian military, and there’s this guy named Colonel Alfred Redl, and he was the person responsible for essentially creating the counter spy operation within the Evidenzbureau. And he had more access to classified information than anyone else in the empire. And so one German official later said he was undoubtedly the masters spy of pre-war Europe. So that’s his job, right, is to make sure that all the intelligence available to the Austro Hungarian military’s in its arsenal is safe. And to make sure that there aren’t, you know spies who are, who are giving it away. So I mean, you’ve watched James Bond, like you understand.

Gregory:

I know the Adele song Skyfall.

Eric:

Yes. That’s a great one. So, but let’s talk about, you know, here’s this guy who’s like really high up within, military intelligence in the empire. This is around 1907. All right. Other things we can keep in mind.

Gregory:

Is he like the J. Edgar Hoover of the Austrian empire?

Eric:

Kind of, kind of, yeah. Hoover was more domestic matters, right? So he was more kind of at like domestic threats going after, you know, the mafia or going after child killers or something like that, or domestic terrorism, whereas like CIA is more spies making sure. And so keep in mind, this is all very new concepts of, you know, the CIA doesn’t exist for another few decades. Now we have this guy Alferd Redl, he’s a Colonel now, things to talk about: homosexuality. By now, unlike in the time of Buchanan and King people know what it is. They know what a homosexual is. That’s largely because doctors, psychiatrists, other sexologists have been finally putting a name on this category, right? Of, instead of it being a sodomite, you could actually be a homosexual, right?

Gregory:

That early?

Eric:

Yeah. Very early. So starting at the, towards the end of the 19th century, you were no longer a sinner for, for engaging in homosexual activity. You were now known as, you know, perhaps a homosexual, right?

Gregory:

That’s earlier than I thought.

Eric:

Yeah. Much earlier. And so we have this concept of homosexuality. And so this idea of having the shared identity, whereas before, you know, if you were secretly, you know, what we would now consider as gay, right? If you had these yearnings for other people, other men, you wouldn’t really know have a word for it.

Gregory:

There was no way to like collectively identify.

Eric:

Exactly. Exactly. And there’s a debate over whether or not there is such thing as being gay when that word didn’t exist. Right? But we’re not going to get into that theory. All we know is we now have a word for it, right? And so there is basically with this, this concept of, of homosexuality existing within the empire, there was kind of a, almost like a don’t ask, don’t tell situation of, you know, we’re not going to have purges of homosexuals from our ranks, right? We’re going to kind of tolerate it so you can kind of get away with it. And so like one expert says discretion was expected more than celibacy. All right? So as long as you were kind of quiet about and to make a big deal, then you were fine. And so we mentioned, you know, the empire’s ruled by this big family the Habsburg family, and especially towards the end of the empire right before the war, and especially among the upper classes, we had this tolerance, right? And one of the, some of the evidence we have for that is it was an empire. So there was an emperor and he had a younger brother who was an Archduke who actually liked dressing in drag and you know, maybe a few centuries before he would have been tortured or burned alive or at least like thrown in jail. This, we had like a lot of clear evidence that he was sleeping around with other army officers and you know, the, the family the Imperial family tried to hide him but didn’t really punish him. You know, they kind of like said, all right, let’s get, get out.

Gregory:

We’re not doing a great job of hiding him if he’s walking around in drag.

Eric:

Right. Right. And so I actually think there, there should be a film about this guy .

Gregory:

I hope he had a drag name.

Eric:

What’s that?

Gregory:

I hope he had a drag name.

Eric:

Maybe. I’m sure there’s no way of knowing. Okay. So this brings us back. We have this context. We know that there’s this new apparatus of, of counter spy program in the Austrian military. Now we’re now getting to, let’s describe who this Colonel radio guy was and why he’s so important. So October, 1907, Russia and the, the, the empire are–tensions are building, right? And so Russia is keeping track of some of the, the key figures within the military, right? They’re doing their own investigation. And so we actually have a cable between Russian officials describing Redl. So go ahead and read what that, that, that cable says.

Gregory:

He is a medium height has slightly green, blonde hair, a short gray mustache, somewhat protruding cheekbones, gray eyes, and a pleasantly ingratiating expression. He is clever, reserved, concentrated, inefficient. His mentality is petty. His outward appearance seems greasy. He speaks sugar sweetly softly in a servile manner. His movements are measured and slow. He has more clever and false than smart and talented. A cynic, a lover of women who loves diversion. Ah, so that last part, yeah, that last part really threw me off.

Eric:

Why, why do you think that’s important? What does that tell us about how the Russians viewed him?

Gregory:

Well, lover of women threw me off who loves diversion? I’m not sure what that means.

Eric:

Mostly fun diversion is just like, Oh, Oh you like, he likes a good, having a good time.

Gregory:

Kiki-Ing.

Eric:

Kiki-Ing. But specifically they thought he was straight. Right. So that’s important. So we’re going to put a pin on that. Things to remember. Alright. The Austro-Hungarian empire tolerated homosexuality but they thought he was straight. So let’s keep going. Now. Redl is, like I said, has probably access to more classified information than anyone else in the empire around this time. So you know, early, very, very early 20th century, he approaches the Italian military attache in Vienna, via a letter and offers him via empires, military plans for cash.

Gregory:

I was just clarifying if you said he reached out via a letter.

Eric:

Yes. And Italy said, Oh yes, right, because we’re getting, you know, we’re inching towards world war one and they’re saying, okay, we want as much information as you can, we’re going to send you thousands of crowns via the mail, right?

Eric:

So it’s just imagine opening up a package and there’s just thousands and thousands of dollars waiting for you just by giving, you know, plans where if there were an outbreak of war, what would our military do? The Italians are now receiving it. And so the Italians later said it required no effort at all to recruit him. Okay. And so he’s giving up information about their fortifications, their army mobilization papers, all these secret reports. And within a few years he ends up starting to give that same information to the Russians as well, right? So from on the Eastern front giving ’em to another enemy, and of course they start paying him. And then of course he becomes unbelievably rich. So you, you start seeing him out in Vienna having these expensive meals, wearing diamonds and jewels. He has all these ridiculously expensive furniture. He owned two of the most expensive cars in the empire and he would lavish his lovers with all these gifts.

Gregory:

I’m curious what really expensive cars in 1915 look like?

 

Eric:

I mean, I, I, I’d imagine something similar because you had Ford doing his, you know, he was beginning, you know, his, what was it, the T one or whatever and like 1907 I think something close like right around here, right around here. So these are like, imagine like having the very first like Tesla, you know, like, or like, the first space shuttle. So so what’s funny is like no one ever stopped to say how he was affording all of this on a military salary. Like if I saw my friend who I knew was making, you know, 30 K a year driving around in a Ferrari, I’d be asking some quite like, or like all the friends we may know who you know are on private jets and you’re like, how, how are you on that ? Or it’s real, but what did you do to get there? Yeah, right. And so it was pretty clear that he was just doing it for the money. Now he gets away with this for a long time, right? Because he invented the system. So he is giving away all this classified information and not getting caught for five years. Right? So he’s doing this for quite awhile, but counterintelligence officials in 1913 start hearing that there is someone in their upper command who is giving away information to the Russians.

Gregory:

Is all of this before world war one?

Eric:

All immediately beforehand. Right? So like a year beforehand, they these officials eventually intercept a letter with all this cash in it, right? 6,000 crowns. They, they, they intercept it, they stake out the post office waiting for someone. They don’t know who it is to pick it up and they see someone come and pick up the package and they follow him back to his hotel and they realize it was Rachel. And so they completely freak out because what does that mean? If your institution has a traitor at the very, very, very top, do we think they want people to know about that or do you think they’ll try to cover it up?

Gregory:

I mean definitely cover up cause it’s highly embarrassing and completely destabilizes that entire institution and would make their allies not trust them.

Eric:

Exactly. Right. So that’s exactly what they tried to do. The military tried to cover it up. They did not want a trial. Right. They did not want this information coming out. So the official story is that a group of these Evidenzbureau officers, right. So people who worked very, very closely with them, you know, showed up to his hotel room, they cornered him and rather than killing them himself, they handed him a pistol and he ended up actually shooting himself. And so of course–

Gregory:

Do we know that he actually did that?

Eric:

That’s the official story. We don’t really know. That’s what you said. That’s, that’s like what, you know, we can’t know for sure what happened, but we don’t have any reason to believe like they, you know, would’ve shot him himself. Because remember, it’s like someone you’ve been working with, like your mentor for years, and then like, you realize this person needs to die, I’m gonna let them do it. Right. And you kind of see that. Uand other times in history, they did find a suicide note. Uit said passion and levity have destroyed me. Pray for me. I repent for my sins with my death, Alfred. And so the military, they, like, they announced that, you know, he, he killed himself, but they say that he had just been spying for a year and they kind of minimize what, what he had done. Uand there’s also news that his apartment, and you have the media within 48 hours, all of these stories leaking about what happened. And it’s one of the first instances actually, of investigative journalism in the form that we have now where you have, you know, members of the media trying to dig out the true story from official reports. And they’re saying they find all these pornographic photos of other army officers in his home. Berlin papers started talking about homosexual pleasure palace filled with perversities. And a lot of it later, historians,

Gregory:

I wonder what 1913 porn looks like.

Eric:

Probably just like Dick pics, I’m assuming. Yeah, right. Yeah, that’s probably it.

Gregory:

Yeah. Probably not like a weird scenario where there’s like an like a fax machine and there’s like a really, you know, cheesy storyline.

Eric:

A fax machine and as cheesy storyline, is that what you are familiar with?

Gregory:

Well that’s like the stereotypical like porn set up, you know.

Eric:

A fax machine. Yeah.

Gregory:

You know, and then there’s like photocopies of someone’s butt.

Eric:

This is like 1980s. Wow.

Gregory:

That was the heyday of porn. Right. It’s the heyday of porn. 1913. That’s all I know.

Eric:

Not 1913. Well, the other thing you have to remember is with photographs like this, they were actually very dangerous to have because since they weren’t digital, you had to get them developed right. Until very recently. You know, it’s so easy to send you know intimate photographs to people now, but back then you would have to trust someone else unless you had your own lab to actually develop them. So very, very difficult and hard to get. But you know, the, the, the media made up, a lot of it scholars have found out, but it was this huge explosive story. And why it’s important is it brought these two threads together of him being a homosexual. Right? The public found out about that. And then they also found out that he was a traitor. So already in the public consciousness, you have this idea of these two things going together. So then world war one comes, and by the end of the first year, end of 1914, the Empire’s army has a staggering 1.3 million casualties. Y.

Gregory:

Eh. I mean, the Austro Hungarian empire was completely decimated.

Eric:

Right. And particularly in this first year. So just unprecedented failure. And so of course, you can imagine it happening now if the military is doing badly or the, the the person who’s leading the military is doing badly. I E in the U S it would be the president. And you’re doing badly. What happens? You find someone else to blame, right? Yeah. Yeah. A scapegoat. A scapegoat. So clearly there were larger problems that contributed to this. So who do they blame? Alfred Redl, the homosexual traitor. And of course, the empire eventually lost the, the, the treaty that wrapped it up and, and so debilitated their economy led to the conditions, which then led to the rise of Adolf Hitler. Right? Right. But in the meantime, the story of Colonel Redl acquires new elements. And specifically there’s one book from 1946, where an author fabricated part of the story and all of a sudden you have this new element of that he was in Russia learning the language in 1900 when he was honey trapped.

Eric:

So you can probably guess what a honey trap is from what we talked about with Trump of it’s a trap.

Gregory:

With honey.

Eric:

With honey.

 

Gregory:

What’s the honey, urine?

 

Eric:

In this case guys, you had sex, right? So this is the, you know, when you talk about the Russians or any state trying to catch someone with classified information in a compromising position usually with having sex, right? It could be anyone they’re not supposed to be having sex with. So, you know, it might be with other sex workers, with someone much younger, they’re cheating right on their wife. And so of course, you know, usually they take pictures, they record it, and then they blackmail with it. And so the book in 1946 claimed that the Russians did this to Redl. But does that actually make sense given what we’ve talked about?

Gregory:

Wait, sorry repeat that again.

Eric:

Okay. The book claimed that the Russians did this to Redl, but why doesn’t that make sense? Considering what we know about what the Russians thought about Redl.

Gregory:

Oh, they think he was straight. Right?

Eric:

So they, we know that they thought he was straight, so there was no way that they were doing this. And we also have no evidence that he actually was caught. Right. And we’ve eventually scholars have found the archives where, you know, the, the different officials within the Russian intelligence service are discussing the Redl case and never do they talk about a situation like this. And they would have, because it’s a huge coup for them.

Gregory:

Are we sure that they thought he was straight because what if they’re using this language in a different way?

Eric:

Uh like lover of women?

Gregory:

Lover of women who loves diversion.

Eric:

Yeah. There is no reason to believe that the Russians actually blackmailed him.

Gregory:

Right.

Eric:

And that is the evidence. I mean, that was a secret cable, right? So if they were, if they believed he was gay, then they would have been saying it privately to each other and they probably would have taken credit for it. Right? Like if you catch someone and blackmailed them and he eventually gets caught, you want to make your country look really good. And so you would probably talk about it. So a lot of them wrote memoirs later where these officials made no reference to anything like that happening. But because this did happen, right, it’s not just say honey traps didn’t happen, but often they would happen with straight people too, right? If you were a guy who was married to a woman and you go off to Moscow and just like allegedly our president, if you get caught doing something you shouldn’t be doing, then you are just as susceptible to blackmail, which is exactly why the gay argument logically, right, n retrospect, doesn’t make sense because why is it that, you know, gays are any more likely to be blackmailed and put in this position compared to a straight person who is cheating on their wife. Right. so let’s fast forward a little bit. Tell me about, what do you remember about McCarthyism or Joseph McCarthy? The Senator?

Gregory:

I mean, just the red scare and seeking out all of the communists, whether they were or weren’t in Hollywood and a lot of it.

Eric:

Right. So he was going after a legend communists. Right. And what we’ve learned since then is it was a political tool, right? He was Joseph McCarthy Senator from Wisconsin. He was a Republican. President Truman, the president at the time was a Democrat, right? He came into office because FDR, the great democratic president died. So Republicans found this incredible way to weaken him and say, your administration, your government is full with those who we fear the most, I. E. communists. Right? And so starting in 1950 the same time that McCarthy is claiming that communists have infiltrated the federal government, he and his allies are also claiming that the government is full of homosexuals. And so why is that bad? Why? Why is it bad and their mind, or at least what they’re telling the public, why homosexuals and the government is bad? Think about the blackmail thing.

Gregory:

Oh, well they could just use it for the same purposes in the context of communism or accusing people.

Eric:

Right? So communists could, in theory, if they’re, if you’re working for like say the CIA and the Russians find out that you’re gay, then what could they do to you?

Gregory:

Blackmail.

Eric:

Exactly. So in a lot of the speeches that McCarthy has giving at the same time, he’s saying, Oh, this person is a, is a suspected communist, this person is communist, this person is a communist. Then you see a few of the cases, he’ll say, Oh, actually, you know, this person isn’t a communist, but he’s gay, which makes him just as bad because he’s now susceptible to being blackmailed by communist. Right, right. So suddenly homosexuality becomes this really convenient tool. You see a time and time again with other States, you know, beginning with, you know, the inquisition, trying to find these external enemies to increase your own power. You have that same exact phenomenon happening here. And this is only what, 70 years ago? And so you have these allegations and the Senate tasks this Senator who is actually a Democrat, he’s a Southern Democrat from North Carolina, Clyde Hoey to begin investigating.

Gregory:

Southern Democrat took on a much different meaning.

Eric:

Right, exactly. Very, it was a very, you know, a Republican. Exactly. I mean, he, he,uwould probably identify as a Republican now be shocked if he did not, which is so interesting because that’s where you see later, you know, that divide. You saw Republicans because they were not necessarily from the South, they would be voting for a lot of the civil rights legislation that would come, you know, a decade or more later. Right. So there was a, was a weird alignment and coalition,uat the time. And so this Democrat,uat the end of the day, he still wants the Democrats to be in power, but he, you know, he’s maybe not as,uin line with Truman as you might expect, he starts bringing in witnesses to find out how homosexuals are a security threat.

Eric:

And so why they shouldn’t be allowed in the government. So they’re not trying to figure out if there’s security threat. It’s kind of like, Oh, we know for a fact that they shouldn’t be in the government. Why? Right. And so it’s basically the government searching for this rationale for why gays shouldn’t be allowed in the government. Of course. Do you really think that these people actually believe this? No. Yeah. They’re just looking for a reason to, exactly. Because if they, if they, you know, we’re being objective about it, they would’ve said, let’s look and see if there’s any instance in history where a homosexual has actually been blackmailed. And so that brings us to the very first witness that they call in 1950 to the Senate. His name is Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter. He’s the very first director of the central intelligence agency, the CIA, which was brand new.

Eric:

It was three years old. And so he shows up this Admiral, very famous, you know very well respected shows up with a 38 page statement about why gays should not be allowed within the federal government and 10 of those pages. So more than a quarter of those pages gives a primary reason for why gay should not be allowed. And he calls it a classic case, one known all through intelligence circles that would leave in his words, no doubt as to the fact that the perversion presents a very definite security risk. And the story he tells–

Gregory:

I mean the bias right there. The perversion.

Eric:

Exactly right. It’s just so clear. But it’s interesting to see what they’re latching onto in order to, you know, tell this story. And in his retelling, Redl had been an honest man and he was in, you know, this, this really unforgiving Imperial army where homosexuality was not tolerated. And you know, he goes to Russia, the Russians hire this young newsboy who then becomes very intimate with him. And then the Russians break into his room, they break into his hotel room, they catch him in his act of perversion, probably photograph it.

Gregory:

This is 1915 porn.

Eric:

This is, yeah, cause this is like,

Gregory:

Oh, I’m the news boy, I’m the news boy.

Eric:

Hey, maybe, maybe we can inspire some new historically accurate. And so they threatened to expose him. And that’s how the Russians get these copies of the Austrian war plants. This is the only evidence, at least on the record, this is the only evidence on the record that he gives to explain why gays should not be in the government. Something from what, 40 years earlier? And that’s the only example he can give. The Redl case. This, this story, this urban legend at this point becomes the primary piece of evidence, the guide’s federal employment policy towards homosexuals for the next three decades.

Gregory:

Wow. Crazy.

Eric:

Um and so one thing before we wrap up, he also gave, I said, you have 10 pages of of the, the Redl case. And he then finishes with 13 principles, 13 facts that he has learned as the CIA director about homosexuals. So let’s go through them. I want to go one by one and decide whether or not he was right. Which he wasn’t, of course right, but it’s still funny. I think it’s, we have to say, all right. Obviously this is like extremely prejudicial and offensive, but some of it’s kind of fun. All right, let’s go through these. Number one.

Gregory:

Homosexuals experience emotions as strong and in fact actually stronger than heterosexual emotions. Is that being presented as a fact?

Eric:

These are all facts. These are facts.

Gregory:

These are facts. Hey, number two, homosexuals are susceptible to domination by aggressive personalities.

Eric:

I mean, sure. Jury’s out.

Gregory:

Do you want me to keep reading and keep going? Number three, homosexuals have psychopath tendencies. That one’s right, which affected the soundness of their judgment. Physical cowardice, susceptibility. That’s the most true one so far. I think we’re three for three. I mean we do. All right. We’re three. Number four homosexuals in variably expressed considerable concern about concealing their condition. I’m assuming condition refers to their body.

Eric:

That’s not true.

Gregory:

Uh that one has changed. That’s totally straight. Yeah. Number five, homosexuals are promiscuous in quotes and often visit various Hangouts of his brethren, marking a definite similarity to other illegal groups such as criminals, smugglers, black marketeers, dope addicts and so forth.

Eric:

I love my various Hangouts with my brethren.

Gregory:

I know, I know my, my black market to your friends. Okay. Number six, homosexuals are number six. Homosexuals with outward characteristics of femininity or lesbians with male characteristics are often difficult to employ because of the effect on their coworkers, officials and other agencies and the public in general. So that ones–

Eric:

We’re just annoying to other people. Yeah, we harm the efficiency of the government.

Gregory:

Yeah. What’s that? Psychological, not real. I’m gonna panic. The homosexual homosexual panic.

Eric:

Yeah. When you find out that someone is gay shocks you to your course, so very deep, right? Yeah. Yeah. Therefore murder fine. Cool.

Gregory:

Literally a defense to murder.

Eric:

He’s an attorney. Yeah. all right.

Gregory:

What number are we on? Number seven. Number seven, homosexuals who think they are discrete are in reality actually quite indiscrete. They are too stupid to realize it. Wow. Or else due to inflation of their ego or through not letting themselves realize the truth. They’re usually the center of gossip, rumor, derision, derision and so forth.

Eric:

I, I mean, some realize I’m indiscreet often and I like to think that I do realize it.

Gregory:

Indiscreet in what way?

Eric:

Like when they say, when he says actually quite indiscreet means they actually are like quite obvious that they’re, that they’re gay. Right. And so,

Gregory:

Mmm.

Eric:

Are we the center of gossip, rumor division and so forth? Probably.

Gregory:

Yeah. I mean if not, I mean we’re maybe not the center, but we’re definitely promoting it. Number eight, homosexuals who try number eight, homosexuals who try to drop the gay life and go straight, eventually revert to type. I mean that’s the most progressive one here. Homosexuals are extremely vulnerable to seduction by another, another pervert employed for that purpose by a foreign power.

Eric:

All right, so that’s our Redl case.

Gregory:

That’s what we’ve been talking about. Yeah. Just kind of subtly tucked in at number nine, homosexuals are extremely defiant in their attitude towards society, which could lead to disloyalty. Maybe it’s because they’re not respecting them. Homosexuals, number 1.1 homosexuals usually seem to be extremely gullible.

Eric:

I’m pretty gullible.

Gregory:

Yeah, but that’s not because you’re gay.

Eric:

Maybe I’m gay because I’m gullible.

Gregory:

Really a chicken and egg thing.

Eric:

All right. Wrapping it up.

Gregory:

Number 12 homosexuals, including even the most brazen perverts are constantly suppressing their instincts, which causes considerable tension.

Eric:

Because you’re spending so much of your psyche trying to conceal yourself, that causes you to be in like unstable conditions. Right. All right, and last one.

Gregory:

Okay. Number 13, homosexuals employed by the government lead to the concept of a government within a government. That sounds timely. That is that is so noteworthy. One pervert brings other perverts. They belong to the lodge, the fraternity. One pervert brings other perverts into an agency and advance them, usually in the interest of furthering the romance of the moment.

Eric:

The romance of the moment.

Gregory:

Very poetic.

Eric:

It is poetic. So basically–

Gregory:

Whoever wrote this was definitely gay by the way. Probably they belonged to the lodge. The fraternity. Yeah, I know one perfect brings other perfect into the agency. Just a lot of sexual undertones here.

Eric:

Right? So later that year, the Senate releases the employment of homosexuals and other sex perverts in government. Sorry, what year was that again? This is 1950 and in December the center releases it, they call it the Holy report named after the Senator who was leading the investigation. And Hillenkoetter’s 13 principles become official government doctrine. And so the government now incorporates this report based on his testimony. And based on this story, the one, the one time only story of Colonel Redl into its security manuals, it gives it to its embassies. It gives it to its allies. And so you may have heard the term, the lavender scare, right? So this is kind of the document that is at the center of the lavender scare. So David Johnson, the professor who wrote that book concludes that the notion that homosexual is threatened national security received the imprimatur of the U S Congress and became accepted as official fact because of this document. So whenever it needed to justify purging homosexuals right firing you because you are gay, ruining your life, it was something that would follow you forever. Because Hey, if you need references and they call the government, they would say, Oh, don’t hire that fag. You know? It just, pointed to the Hoey report. And so seven years later this is what justified the firing of the main character actually of my book. Dr. Frank Kameny, who was an astrophysicist working for the army map service. When they found out he was gay, they immediately fired him. He was the first to fight back. The reason why gays are allowed to serve in the federal government is largely because of this man. And so the Holy report because it’s so important–

Gregory:

That name is just really hilarious. Hoey, the Hoey report.

Eric:

Well, you know what, I never thought about that.

Gregory:

Yeah.

Eric:

That’s so interesting.

Gregory:

Very on the note, the Hoey report.

Eric:

Um so I don’t, I don’t have it in front of me, but we’ll show it to our viewers. The, the Holy report is actually the model for the cover of my book, so, Oh, cool. We modeled it after and made it the negative of the Holy report because this is a story of how, not just how the Holy report came to be, but how more importantly activists, just like we were talking about the AIDS activists who forced the government to start grappling with a crisis. These activists acknowledge and acknowledge the crisis and not laugh at it. You know, before that decades before that, gays were being purged from their jobs, right. Their lives were ruined. Some of them took their own lives. As you saw it actually in the case of Redl and then, you know, a few decades later, you see gays being purged from existence, right, essentially. And a very similar phenomenon of a government not caring, right. Or going out of its way to make sure that these purges continued until activists actually fought back. And so I think that’s why, you know, the story is fun, but it’s just part of a larger story to show how kind of absurd the rationale for the government was at the time and how, you know, this absurdity allowed activists to fight back and say, this makes no sense, right? Straight people are just as susceptible to blackmail as gay people and Hey, maybe gay people wouldn’t be blackmailed if they had nothing to fear.

Gregory:

If there wasn’t a reason to fear?

Eric:

Exactly. Have anything to fear. And so that’s what a lot of the activists started out saying is trying to say, Hey, if you government, hello, if you just allowed us to be gay.

Gregory:

And literally stopped doing stuff like this.

Eric:

Yes, exactly. Calling us perverts calling us, you know, all these 13 things, then there would be no reason to be blackmailed. Right? We would have nothing to fear. And so that is some of the logic that they’re using and they realize that, Oh, the government maybe doesn’t actually buy its own arguments. Right? It doesn’t make sense. And that’s what the court starts saying later. And so, you know I hope everyone listening, if you’re, if you’re interested in this, definitely consider reading up on some of the figures including Frank Kameny consider pre-ordering the book but also stay vigilant, right. Especially now because in times of crisis, right? 1950 was a scary year, right? The, the the Soviets had just acquired a nuclear bomb, right. The China had just been lost to the communists. People were terrified. And it was in this context of terror of people being really scared. That gays became the target because the government, just like they targeted in Austro-Hungarian Hungarian empire, they targeted Redl as an excuse for why it was doing badly. Now as things get scary, we need to be looking at, all right, who is going to be the target next? And we need to be prepared to fight back

Gregory:

And not just in the homosexual context. And we see it’s happening on a massive scale and the Trump administration, most notably to the Latino community.

Eric:

Yeah. The Latino community and also now the Asian community also, right? Because of where this, the, the virus started. You know, thankfully now people are realizing that this virus doesn’t really give a shit about, about race or borders or walls or anything like that. And so but I think it goes to show that we–

Gregory:

It’d be so crazy if it did.

Eric:

Yes it would. And I don’t think it’s possible. Fortunately we’re all in this together. So everyone stay healthy, read up, keep informed, go watch how to survive a plague tonight and otherwise. You know what I think the one thing that is amazing about the internet is it allows us to do this and while also being socially isolated and have these conversations. So please let us know if you have any, any questions or anything like that, but most of all, thank you so much for joining us. Hope you’re staying sane and healthy in your homes. Gregory, what, what’s your plan for the rest of the day?

Gregory:

I mean possibly work out. I don’t know.

Eric:

Well, you have an at home workout.

Gregory:

I know, I know. I got it right. I mean, I got it. About six weeks ago. So it was, I mean, people kind of knew about Corona, but it had not hit the peak and I did not.

Eric:

You’re going to become the Jane Fonda, the gay Jane Fonda of like of at home Corona Fitness.

Gregory:

Yeah. My DVDs are gonna go viral. I mean, you could use, wow, you’ve already released one for me. It’s on Instagram.

Eric:

It’s on Instagram. Anyone can see his workout routine at @greggsnbacon. Is that what your, your Instagram?

Gregory:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric:

That’s exciting.

 

Gregory:

Yeah. I’m going to do that. And then, Oh, Westworld season three premiere.

Eric:

Does that start tonight? Oh, that’s exciting. All right, well everyone thank you for joining. Keep in mind your 13 principles. Watch out to make sure that you are not exhibiting any of the characteristics of a homosexual. And if you do, you are good for you. Like, just keep going. Like I, it’s, we got to stick in this together. We gotta, we gotta be blatant and what do they call us?

Gregory:

Psychopathic tendencies.

Eric:

Oh my gosh. Yeah. But don’t be gullible or too psychopathic or it’s fine line. But thank you Admiral Hillenkoetter, Colonel Redl for giving us this great content and everyone stay safe, stay healthy, stay alone, and try not to contact other people, but most importantly, thank you so much for joining us and we’ll see you next week on the Deviant’s World.

[Interlude]

Eric:

Hi everyone. It’s me again this week, my book, The Deviant’s War: The Homosexual vs. The United States of America became available for preorder. It’s the secret history of gay rights in America, and I’m giving out a free preorder package for the first 1000 people who preorder it. So if you haven’t already, do me a favor and preorder it today. It’s all stores that there’s going to be big demand for this book. Plus Amazon won’t even charge you until it comes out on June 2nd, thanks so much and see you next week on the DVS world.

 

Subscribe

Stay updated with news on Eric’s podcast, book, and events.